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john goth
Posts:49
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| 07/15/2010 7:56 PM |
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| When you go to this link http://www.usra.org/RecordBooks/DoublesChampions.aspx and go to the 25 plus tab you'll see tod and hart in that catergory thats where I got the info so if its incorrect call the usra. W'hen you click on the open tab I dont see there name. Please explain. Locker do you only have input on spelling or do you have input on the draw itselft? This threads for you I want to hear what you think. I'm trying to learn about the past and your one of the best lets hear it break it down old man. haha. |
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LeftyStringer
Posts:61
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| 07/17/2010 11:22 PM |
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Ok, then I was misinformed. I did research it myself and found the same info you said... It was a 25+ title. Maybe I got the Ferris National Titles confused... I'm not Locks...
But if I DID have to have input on the draw, I'd put Lock @ #1. |
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Locks
Posts:115
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| 07/21/2010 12:32 PM |
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This is a fun thread to read. I do think that it is very tough to ultimately determine true results based on the evolution of the racquets, speed of the play and increased athleticism over the years. Dan Ferris had back to back national titles but yet I personally only lost to Dan no more than twice in my career? Does this make me the #1 seed...I do not know? How many times did Ferris lose to Schmidtke or Strom? They all played in a different era which makes this fun to see the layout and difference in opinions. And yes, I was able to play against Ron Strom years ago when I was a junior player and I am 3-0 against him back when I was 16 & 17yrs old back at the old Burnsville club. Hart is and was a doubles specialists only and had tough times playing as a singles player and has never developed a backhand. One of the greatest left side players in doubles though and he is a great "crowder" of the shooting lane.
My draw would look as follows based on all the players I have had the chance to play and watch over my r-ball career.
Mike Locker #1
Hart Johnson #16
Kevin Graham #8
Jim Jeffers #9
Ron Strom #5
John Goth #12
Jim Frautschi #13
Bill Schmidtke #4
Steve Strandemo #3
Jason Jansen #14
Bruce Erickson #6
Rob French #11
Todd Stead #7
Aaron Granberg #10
Brett Beugen #15
Dan Ferris #2
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Mike Locker
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Locks
Posts:115
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| 07/21/2010 3:09 PM |
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Names who could also be debatable on this list would be:
Brandon Hartinger
Dave Werschay
Justin Knutson
Scott Daugaard
Glen Withrow
Paul Iker
Brett Beugen and Hart Johnson are tough pills for me to swallow especially since Beugen walked away from playing tournaments many years ago and just recently resurfaced over the last few years. I am torn between dropping Hart and adding Dave Werschay and dropping Beugen and adding Paul Iker but I think that both those two players were more of a threat in singles than Hart or Brett. Ever see Dave Werschay's drive serve....he was hitting it as hard as anyone in the world back then and was a strong inter-collegiate player. Iker was just a mean looking, talented player dressed all in black. I also bumped up Jimmy "Jam" Jeffers to the 7th seed as he was a finalist in many Open/Pro tournaments over the years and had a winning record on Stead.
By the way Goth, LeftyStringer is NOT me....just wanted to be clear on that. He is a good racquet stringer though!
Revised Dream Draw:
Mike Locker #1
Dave Werschay #16
Kevin Graham #8
Todd Stead #9
Ron Strom #5
John Goth #12
Jim Frautschi #13
Bill Schmidtke #4
Steve Strandemo #3
Jason Jansen #14
Bruce Erickson #6
Rob French #11
Jim Jeffers #7
Aaron Granberg #10
Paul Iker #15
Dan Ferris #2 |
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Mike Locker
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Locks
Posts:115
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| 07/22/2010 9:06 AM |
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A few other names to throw out there:
Paul Bakken
Pete Taunton (the twins were more of a doubles threat I think but both were very good)
Paul Taunton
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Mike Locker
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john goth
Posts:49
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| 07/23/2010 6:06 PM |
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Stats
Pro stop wins
Mike 0
Steve 3
Pro stop finals
Mike 1
Steve 7
Pro stop semi's
Mike 1
Steve 14
Pro stop Quarters
Mike 3
Steve 33
Just some stats to consider when doing a draw. I do like your draw mike but have a couple issues with it. The stats that Steve has are pretty impressive on a national level. The stats you have are impressive on both a national and a state level but more on a state level. Your record of state titles is awesome but the pro record of steve is more impressive in my reasoning. Me personally I dont see how tod would be ahead of me with no state title wins or Kevin Graham. If you dont have multipul state titles your going to have a lower seed. There's a few names in there I dont know about but I feel strong that I would be top 8 for sure. The Granny seed is tough but I would put me ahead of him. He has one more state title then me but has only beat me once in 4 trys in tourneys. This is tough I like that you responded there is no right or wrong answer. For those who post on who's the best or some of the seeds please have a take with your reasoning dont just say Mike's the best please explain why. Good to see my thread is doing awesome. |
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btprball
Posts:110
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| 07/24/2010 12:58 PM |
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I agree with the hart and buegen coments Mike. I would have taken Werschay and that drive serve over Hart any day in singles, but Hart's doubles play was spectactular. Also the competition today is not what it was back then. Could definately go either way with Goth or Stead. I don't think that the state titles make that much of a difference. If you are winning state titles, awesome, but you have to look at the level of the competition. These days the top players can win a state title with one draw, 1 easy match, one slightly competitive match, and one tough match, no diss but back in the day open draws were taking up 2 tourney sheets, and the top 10 were all ballers. You do make a compelling argument Goth on the Strandemo/ Locker thing. I would have gone Locks all the way, but those #'s don't lie. I think that one could be argued for years. Sorry if I slaughtered names and spelling. Cool forum.
How's those metro's, I'd have to take out the front seat and sit in the back to drive. |
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btprball
Posts:110
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| 07/25/2010 1:19 PM |
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| I don't mean to overstate the state titles thing, that is huge, but it does depend on what you are using as the criteria. Also in thinking more on it, if you are going to have a best of MN Draw, I guess I would say that MN titles and MN play should play a bigger role, but if you are saying best ever from MN, then the weight of the pro play would take more weight. Wish there was more video to look back at the earlier era's. I guess I'd put Goth over Stead considering the actual succcesses. Also, think the top 10 in their prime would make an awesome battle. After that it gets a little fuzzy. |
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Locks
Posts:115
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| 07/26/2010 1:57 PM |
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In my draw, I tried to take the "level of competition" in play as much as possible. The pro stats mentioned above are huge and no doubt that Strandemo was a player to be reckoned with. What he did not do is compete against probably the worlds greatest racquetball class ever from the early 90's through the late to early 2203 era.
I was fortunate to defeat some big time players in their day such as Drew Katchtik, Sudsy Monchik, Tim Doyle, Cliff Swain, Mike Ray, John Ellis, Mike Guidry, Dan Fowler, Louis Vogel etc. and some of these victories came in tradtional sanctioned pro events and/or the non-traditional satellite tournaments which are for the most part, off the record or not tracked well.
So when you compile "data", that "data" does not take into effect how the game has evolved from racket size, ball speed etc. Once the racquets increased in size, it took Marty Hogan's power game away and in came the likes of Egan Inua (sp??), Doyle, Ellis, Monchik etc. and totally revolutionized the sport as it was. Strandemo was a calculated player using a lot of finesse and strategic shot selection based on pace...totally different era so once again, really tough to use old school data but it does provide a reference tool of course then some open discussion and common sense like we are doing.
So it is my opinion that if Strandemo were a player of the "new" era of power racquetball, he would not have the stats in the above mentioned post.
Goth over Stead - debatable for sure as Goth came around to reaching potential when the vast majority of players began exiting the game so in theory, who was John's toughest competition at the state level? Stead competed against a much tougher draw over the years than what Goth has had to do so if I would have to sway with Stead on this one.
Same opinion with Granberg - it is all about the draw and who is in it to add statistical value. It has been the Granny and Goth show since about 2003 when MN lost players like myself, Jeffers, Graham, Homa, Stead etc. so it is very tough to assess any justifiable change in opinion.
Kevin Graham - he was as tough as any player when he was playing, he could beat the best and he has some good wins under his belt over the years. I had a hard time even having him ranked at #8 as I think he could battle with Bruce Erickson 10 times and possible win 7 times out of 10 but I gave Bruce the upper leg due to his past accomplishements at the state and collegiate levels.
I competed against EVERY single player mentioned (man am I old) and feel pretty confident in the looks of the draw. It is fun to have healthy debate and everyone has their own opinions but it helps when you have actually stepped on the court with these players and were able to watch them in action (Schmidtke, Strandemo, Ferris, Strom etc.) |
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Mike Locker
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john goth
Posts:49
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| 07/26/2010 9:58 PM |
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Great post Locks. Theres two ways to look at this draw best in minnesota or best nationally from minnesota. Either way its tough to make a draw. The draws have been pretty weak over the past few years but we can only play who shows up in the draw and those players you mentioned aren't coming back. I do have some good wins under my belt on minor scale. Beat Ruben at pro nationals and yes I know he's old but that following year he beat tucker and then beat shane vanderson in the 16s. I beat Kyle when he was ranked number 10 on the irt. I beat Andy Hawthorne when he was number 10. I beat Alehandro Herrea when he was numbers 10. I beat cliff swain in Iowa I know he's older but tough as nails. I've beaten Woody clouse. I lost to Jason Thorenor 11-9 in the 5th when he was 8th on tour. I beat Mitch Williams in juniors a top irt pro. And recently played a great game against Rocky. I dont see Todd being able to do that. In my mind top 8 of all time in Minnesota. Three state titles one of them after surgery. Your modern era slash old school which is awesome but gotta give some credit to the new age of players.
Hey Brain I'm going for your all times viewed record with this thread. haha. |
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btprball
Posts:110
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| 07/27/2010 11:53 AM |
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| I figured, that's why I only check it every other day, and minimal posting from me. lol. I like it, Not as much as the team goth shirt, but... |
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tstead
Posts:2
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| 08/03/2010 12:50 PM |
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| Fun topic to read and as I've played against almost all players mentioned, excluding Steve Strandemo and Bill Schmidtke, I figured I'd add a few comments:
#1 Mike Locker -- Solid pick
#2 Dan Ferris -- Solid pick with 2 national amateur championships to his credit (never played much on the pro tour however)
#3 Steve Strandemo -- A consistent quarterfinal and semi-finalist for many years on the pro tour as i recall. Maybe needs to move up a notch
#4 Bill Schmidtke -- Can't go wrong with 2 national professional championships to his credit. Maybe needs to move up a notch or two.
#5 Ron Strom -- Never saw him play in his prime but no argument here.
#6 Bruce Erickson -- I always had a tough time matching up against him (singles or doubles) -- A good pick here.
#7 Jim Jeffers -- Good player but probably wouldn't add him to the list as I always thinks of him as being from Illinois. I think he was only in Minnesota 3 or 4 years.
#8 Kevin Graham -- Another good player that for whatever reason i always matched up well against. Don't think I lost more than 1 or 2 matches to him in singles or doubles. Also, I think of him as being from Wisconsin so probably wouldn't add him to the list either.
#9 Todd Stead -- Move up at least one notch -- See Kevin Graham review.
#10 Aaron Granberg -- Solid pick
#11 Rob French -- Consistent semi-final threat but don't recall too many finals matches with him. I'd probably move him down.
#12 John Goth -- Definitely move up a few notches based on his performance.
#13 Jim Frautschi -- Solid pick, so consistent for so long.
#14 Jason Jansen -- Good player but probably move down a notch or two.
#15 Paul Ikier -- Great player back in the day, very consistent semi-finalist for years and years.
#16 Dave Werschay -- Yes he was very dangerous but also very inconsistent. He could ace you 10 ten time in a row than turn around and hit 10 balls into the service line. Probably wouldn't include him on the list.
Other notables:
Paul Bakken -- Didn't play long but was always a semi-final or finalist. Throw in a couple of national collegiate doubles championships and i'd add him to the list.
Steve Singer -- As competitive a human being as i've ever met. An animal on the court who would rather go thru you than around you with the ball or his body. Add two state singles championships (i believe??) and i'm adding him to my list.
Hart Johnson -- Yes mainly doubles, however he did win one state singles championship, beating me in the finals i might add. I'm probably way biased here but i'm adding him to my list.
So in summary:
Top 4 -- Schmidtke, Locker, Ferris, Strandemo. Probably in that order for me. Schmidtke over Locker simply because of his 2 national pro championships. They all are hugely successful and important to MN racquetball and you could make a solid argument for any of them!
(A little tidbit regarding Schmidtke's 1971 pro national win: He beat #1 ranked Charlie Brumfield and #3 ranked Steve Serot to win the national title however....He only finished 3rd in the MN State Championship in the same year behind -- Ron Strom (1st place) and Steve Strandemo (2nd place). Pretty solid racquetball competition in MN i'd say.)
#5 Ron Strom
#6 Bruce Erickson
#7, #8, #9 Goth, Stead, Granberg (you pick'em)
#10 Steve Singer
#11 Paul Bakken
#12 Jim Frautschi
#13 Paul Ikier
#14 Hart Johnson
#15 Rob French
#16 Jason Jansen
My 2-cents worth to an interesting discussion. And I'm sure I've forgotten about a few people also. |
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Locks
Posts:115
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| 08/03/2010 3:00 PM |
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Nice post Todd and thanks for stopping by. Some awesome insight in deed and no doubt on that 1971 state finish with Strom, Strandemo and then Schmidtke....unreal! I remember playing John Schmidtke Jr. at state one year and his old man was watching and giving him pointers all the time and kinda made a player intimidated just because of who he was.
I think it would be fun to create a fantasy state traveling team to compete against other states and see how MN would compare on the depth chart?
I do agree that Jeffers could be considered from Illinios.
Terry Daniels was tough too back in the day. |
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Mike Locker
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tstead
Posts:2
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| 08/03/2010 3:46 PM |
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| I see my formatting didn't turn out so good for my first post -- It wasn't supposed to be quite so jumbled together....oh well. Another name that popped into my head from back in the late 70's and early 80's was Del Kauss. I remember he and his wife Linda won the state singles men's and women's championship in the same year, maybe 1982 or so. He didn't play long but he always seemed to be in the semi-finals or finals of MN events. |
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john goth
Posts:49
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| 08/04/2010 10:18 PM |
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Had the good fortune of playing racquetball with Tony Upkes tonight a St. Cloud native in the late 70's and over a couple of beers watching a twins game I asked him to list his top 16 of all time in Minnesota.
Tony Upkes Draw
#1 Steve
#2 Bill
#3 Ferris
#4 Strom
#5 Locker
#6 Paul Iker
#7 Goth
#8 Donny Constable
#9 Stead
#10 Jack Stroman
#11 Steve Singer
#12 Gorman--Didn't know his first name, From Rochester
#13 Granny
#14 French
#15 Graham
#16 Upkes
He told me he doens't have many wins here but has wins agains Ferris, Stead, French and Goth. He beat Suckerman on the pro tour when he was #8 has many master titles in singes and doubles two national titles and Nebraska and South Dakota state titles. From what I can tell its very old school heavy he didn't know a ton of modern era players or new age but this is his opinion. Thinks Troy Stallings falls just under this group in the 18 to 20 range of seeds.
Great post Stead was curious to get your thoughts on this draw as well. Mike please reply as well. |
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